Or just overwhelmingly arrogant because they’re top dogs and dictate to the rest of the hero teams. Remember that even the Guard don’t see themselves as being peers to these clowns, and they’re not exactly humble themselves.
Or, in the words of Adrian Veidt, “I never claimed to be anybody special. I just have a very enthusiastic PR team” (quoted from memory, apologies if wrong). Maybe they look so confident because, well, experience has demonstrated that they can take pretty much anything and emerge triumphant. If they’re that good, it’s not arrogance, it’s just knowing you’re good.
Also, no one says they have picked their own name. It’s entirely possible that their confident attitude is just a front that PR people have been telling them for years makes the common folk trust that they know what they’re doing.
More generally, I’m not entirely sure this story buys into the whole “superheroes are jerks” attitude seen in Marshal Law (credit where it’s due), Kingdom Come or The Boys. There are superheroes who are jerks (Quarterback), overly aggressive (Bulldog), slowly losing their grip on their humanity (Spitfire), and possibly some whose powers seem to go with dangerous psychological trauma (Snowfall, much as I like her), but I don’t view the majority that way.
About the Guard’s lack of humility, have you read their comic? (Highly recommended if not.) I feel Majesty, of all people, displays a very pragmatic and down-to-earth attitude in it. Everything I’ve said about the Pantheon’s attitude also works for the Guard.
The Royal Guard have already fought multiversal threats before… are we going to get a Pantheon comic at some point? I wonder how much more grand their adventures could be.
Pretty sure they’re the endboss villains of this story, so – no. They’re almost certainly responsible for the “pragmatic” just-kill-real-problems attitude of the international heroes system, the same one we’ve seen the Guard use on Egregore, and I won’t be surprised if they turn out to be responsible for the program that created him – and Silveback, and Warhead, and the Guard’s vocalist. 🙂
What else they’re up to is less obvious, but positioning to win a war between mundane humanity and their extended coterie of supers is likely, along with the usual “rule the world” BS you’d expect from a group naming itself Pantheon. These aren’t good guys, although I bet they’ll have excuses for every bad thing they do.
“They’re almost certainly responsible for the “pragmatic” just-kill-real-problems attitude”
That’s the single most realistic thing in this comic. Putting someone like Egregore in prison, just waiting to get out and kill and/or torture as many people as possible again, is utterly insane, barring some way to definitely, permanently, and definitely permanently remove his powers.
And don’t get me started on putting someone like that back in… *THE SAME PRISON THEY ALREADY ESCAPED FROM*, as so many comics do. Luckily, in most comics, all the Redshirts and other nameless innocent bystanders don’t mind getting killed by the same guy that broke out and killed 200 people last week, and they won’t really mind when it happens again next week, or the week after, or…………………..
The real reason for that is that “making good villains is hard”. Realistically, someone like Egregore would only be taken alive if he outright surrendered at the first opportunity, and the Joker would be “killed while escaping (while fully restrained)” somewhere between the 5th and 10th time he broke out and had a double-digit body count, and 99.9999% of humanity would cheer for it.
As they darn well should – proven repeat mass murderers no longer being able to mass murder is a cheer-worthy thing.
In my mind, killing Egregore was an admission of weakness. “We are too afraid to be defeated by this guy if he escapes, so we’re killing him.”
Not that I blame them, mind. It’s a good thing to admit one’s limitations, especially when they’re so much above and beyond that of common people.
Then again, I can’t blame Silverback either for reacting against this decision, because I haven’t been able yet to find a flaw in Gandalf the Grey’s wisdom of “Many that live deserve death, and some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment.” (I can very well accept that some people may be beyond redemption, but how do you know that for a fact?)
On that topic, I heartily recommend “Je verrai toujours vos visages”, English title “All Your Faces”, that showcases restorative justice. (If you can’t see it, there’s an example of that in “The Angels’ Share” too.)
Re: recurring villains… Really, I feel the reason for the Joker always escaping is that most superhero comics are ongoing series and always need another story, another conflict, another villain. Which means you have to either create new ones or bring back old ones. The first approach may, at some point, look like bringing back old villains under new guises, if only because you feel there actually is another interesting story to tell about a psycho killer dressed as a clown.
Which means killing villains is no solution, because they’ll turn out to have a son/grandson/wife/colleague who will stumble upon old equipment and try it again (the Green Goblin/Jack O’Lantern/Hobgoblin of Spider-Man comics), or they’ll be resurrected for some reason (Apocalypse or Mr. Sinister from X-Men), or even both (Kraven the Hunter killed himself, only to be resurrected and succeeded by his son, the Grim Hunter)!
One of the solutions I’m most fond of is redeeming villains (Rogue being my favorite example, but Hawkeye and Black Widow are awesome too). Sadly, I feel comics these past years have featured more of the reverse (Cyclops becoming a villain? Seriously?)
I think the best course would be to leave ‘iconic’ heroes behind and create new heroes for new stories. Over and over. Of course, executives would never accept that because it would mean taking a chance, but I feel Ms. Marvel has proved that a new, well-written hero (if with a legacy name) can be used for innovative stories and have good financial success.
“Then again, I can’t blame Silverback either for reacting against this decision, because I haven’t been able yet to find a flaw in Gandalf the Grey’s wisdom of “Many that live deserve death, and some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment.” (I can very well accept that some people may be beyond redemption, but how do you know that for a fact?) ”
That’s the wrong thing to think about – and indeed, Gandalf’s statement, while a good idea to think about, was not some kind of “never kill people who deserve it” thing, as he was quite willing to kill, too.
But the real thing to think about is this: Egregore just killed at least hundreds of people. He is utterly unrepentant. Given the chance, he absolutely will kill again.
So, what’s the minimum body count available? Well, unless you’re just **REALLY** sure that you can contain him, the minimum body count is one – Egregore.
If he ever kills an innocent victim, ever again, you screwed up. You let somebody evil kill innocent people.
The reason we don’t allow the cops to just execute murderers on the spot is not because our courts are the thing that makes execution just. We don’t allow cops to execute people because that’s too much power for an individual to have, because we don’t trust at least some of them *not to abuse it*. That’s the only reason.
If someone did the crime, and the punishment is execution, then that person getting executed, by anyone, with any amount of process (including none) is not unjust. The process is to prevent abuses, to gain some level of assurance that the person is actually guilty, not to make it just.
Yes, I am fully aware of “restorative justice”, or whatever name people want to use for it. That goes to show the weaknesses in the system, largely the abuses that still manage to take place (and are generally not punished, which is where the real problem is). It says absolutely nothing about a situation like Egregore or other self-admitted mass murderers – it says things about proper identification of guilt, nothing about what punishment the undoubtedly guilty they deserve.
“Really, I feel the reason for the Joker always escaping is that most superhero comics are ongoing series and always need another story, another conflict, another villain.”
Yes, exactly, that’s the flip side of the “not killing people” thing. It’s contrived to have more episodes of a proven franchise, and the “never kill anyone no matter what” BS is exactly the same thing.
“That’s the single most realistic thing in this comic.”
Agreed. Obviously no one would want a team of super-powered “heroes” to go around dealing out death on a whim, but to adamantly NEVER do it, and to conveniently never run into situations where it’s the actual answer (“he put down the remote! take the shot!”) is, IMHO, one line of many separating entertainment for children from adult-level stories.
Let’s agree to disagree (for now) about the intents of the Pantheon. I for one don’t know much yet about them (unless I be mistaken, the only thing we know for sure is that they seem to always arrive late for meetings — but is it arrogance or just a very busy life?).
If I *had* to call an endboss, I’d muse that the superpowered beings engineered on that island seem to become more and more awfully dangerous, which leads me to think that dear ol’ Silverback will have to fight against even more overpowered “siblings”, until even he can’t do a blessed thing and the Pantheon has to step in, possibly after the Royal Guard has been defeated. (Also, there’s M.A.N.T.I.S and that dubious tycoon, but are they merely pawns of an even greater threat? Or are they independent for now, but said threat will make them comply or be destroyed?)
That being said, this story has been full of surprises and I totally expect my call to be wrong. And I’ll enjoy it, I think.
I for one would like that. Possibly with a subplot that would remind some of them of their own humanity, or simply make them aware of how important the common folk are. (Something all too easy to forget when you stride among the stars.)
But I still have to say that this entrance is totally impressive, and well worth the reputation of the group. I was theorizing less than nine characters last page, possibly seven, but only six show (and I’m not complaining).
Quick character review: the two big guys look extremely menacing, as befits their reputation. I’ve been searching my memory for goddesses whose name starts with an A, and if that’s Artemis in white, well, the colour suits her theme. The lady in purple has an interesting relaxed stance, the one in red (Mercury?) looks like he’ll be the first to spring into action if needed… and the one in grey looks, naturally, as the least physically impressive but possibly the most dangerous of the bunch.
Once again, I’m looking forward to how this is going to play out. Congratulations!
Thunderbolt and lightning… very very frightening… So god themed superheroes?
Or just overwhelmingly arrogant because they’re top dogs and dictate to the rest of the hero teams. Remember that even the Guard don’t see themselves as being peers to these clowns, and they’re not exactly humble themselves.
Or, in the words of Adrian Veidt, “I never claimed to be anybody special. I just have a very enthusiastic PR team” (quoted from memory, apologies if wrong). Maybe they look so confident because, well, experience has demonstrated that they can take pretty much anything and emerge triumphant. If they’re that good, it’s not arrogance, it’s just knowing you’re good.
Also, no one says they have picked their own name. It’s entirely possible that their confident attitude is just a front that PR people have been telling them for years makes the common folk trust that they know what they’re doing.
More generally, I’m not entirely sure this story buys into the whole “superheroes are jerks” attitude seen in Marshal Law (credit where it’s due), Kingdom Come or The Boys. There are superheroes who are jerks (Quarterback), overly aggressive (Bulldog), slowly losing their grip on their humanity (Spitfire), and possibly some whose powers seem to go with dangerous psychological trauma (Snowfall, much as I like her), but I don’t view the majority that way.
About the Guard’s lack of humility, have you read their comic? (Highly recommended if not.) I feel Majesty, of all people, displays a very pragmatic and down-to-earth attitude in it. Everything I’ve said about the Pantheon’s attitude also works for the Guard.
So Galileo would be the guy in black, and Figaro the one in grey?
The Royal Guard have already fought multiversal threats before… are we going to get a Pantheon comic at some point? I wonder how much more grand their adventures could be.
Pretty sure they’re the endboss villains of this story, so – no. They’re almost certainly responsible for the “pragmatic” just-kill-real-problems attitude of the international heroes system, the same one we’ve seen the Guard use on Egregore, and I won’t be surprised if they turn out to be responsible for the program that created him – and Silveback, and Warhead, and the Guard’s vocalist. 🙂
What else they’re up to is less obvious, but positioning to win a war between mundane humanity and their extended coterie of supers is likely, along with the usual “rule the world” BS you’d expect from a group naming itself Pantheon. These aren’t good guys, although I bet they’ll have excuses for every bad thing they do.
“They’re almost certainly responsible for the “pragmatic” just-kill-real-problems attitude”
That’s the single most realistic thing in this comic. Putting someone like Egregore in prison, just waiting to get out and kill and/or torture as many people as possible again, is utterly insane, barring some way to definitely, permanently, and definitely permanently remove his powers.
And don’t get me started on putting someone like that back in… *THE SAME PRISON THEY ALREADY ESCAPED FROM*, as so many comics do. Luckily, in most comics, all the Redshirts and other nameless innocent bystanders don’t mind getting killed by the same guy that broke out and killed 200 people last week, and they won’t really mind when it happens again next week, or the week after, or…………………..
The real reason for that is that “making good villains is hard”. Realistically, someone like Egregore would only be taken alive if he outright surrendered at the first opportunity, and the Joker would be “killed while escaping (while fully restrained)” somewhere between the 5th and 10th time he broke out and had a double-digit body count, and 99.9999% of humanity would cheer for it.
As they darn well should – proven repeat mass murderers no longer being able to mass murder is a cheer-worthy thing.
In my mind, killing Egregore was an admission of weakness. “We are too afraid to be defeated by this guy if he escapes, so we’re killing him.”
Not that I blame them, mind. It’s a good thing to admit one’s limitations, especially when they’re so much above and beyond that of common people.
Then again, I can’t blame Silverback either for reacting against this decision, because I haven’t been able yet to find a flaw in Gandalf the Grey’s wisdom of “Many that live deserve death, and some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment.” (I can very well accept that some people may be beyond redemption, but how do you know that for a fact?)
On that topic, I heartily recommend “Je verrai toujours vos visages”, English title “All Your Faces”, that showcases restorative justice. (If you can’t see it, there’s an example of that in “The Angels’ Share” too.)
Re: recurring villains… Really, I feel the reason for the Joker always escaping is that most superhero comics are ongoing series and always need another story, another conflict, another villain. Which means you have to either create new ones or bring back old ones. The first approach may, at some point, look like bringing back old villains under new guises, if only because you feel there actually is another interesting story to tell about a psycho killer dressed as a clown.
Which means killing villains is no solution, because they’ll turn out to have a son/grandson/wife/colleague who will stumble upon old equipment and try it again (the Green Goblin/Jack O’Lantern/Hobgoblin of Spider-Man comics), or they’ll be resurrected for some reason (Apocalypse or Mr. Sinister from X-Men), or even both (Kraven the Hunter killed himself, only to be resurrected and succeeded by his son, the Grim Hunter)!
One of the solutions I’m most fond of is redeeming villains (Rogue being my favorite example, but Hawkeye and Black Widow are awesome too). Sadly, I feel comics these past years have featured more of the reverse (Cyclops becoming a villain? Seriously?)
I think the best course would be to leave ‘iconic’ heroes behind and create new heroes for new stories. Over and over. Of course, executives would never accept that because it would mean taking a chance, but I feel Ms. Marvel has proved that a new, well-written hero (if with a legacy name) can be used for innovative stories and have good financial success.
“Then again, I can’t blame Silverback either for reacting against this decision, because I haven’t been able yet to find a flaw in Gandalf the Grey’s wisdom of “Many that live deserve death, and some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment.” (I can very well accept that some people may be beyond redemption, but how do you know that for a fact?) ”
That’s the wrong thing to think about – and indeed, Gandalf’s statement, while a good idea to think about, was not some kind of “never kill people who deserve it” thing, as he was quite willing to kill, too.
But the real thing to think about is this: Egregore just killed at least hundreds of people. He is utterly unrepentant. Given the chance, he absolutely will kill again.
So, what’s the minimum body count available? Well, unless you’re just **REALLY** sure that you can contain him, the minimum body count is one – Egregore.
If he ever kills an innocent victim, ever again, you screwed up. You let somebody evil kill innocent people.
The reason we don’t allow the cops to just execute murderers on the spot is not because our courts are the thing that makes execution just. We don’t allow cops to execute people because that’s too much power for an individual to have, because we don’t trust at least some of them *not to abuse it*. That’s the only reason.
If someone did the crime, and the punishment is execution, then that person getting executed, by anyone, with any amount of process (including none) is not unjust. The process is to prevent abuses, to gain some level of assurance that the person is actually guilty, not to make it just.
Yes, I am fully aware of “restorative justice”, or whatever name people want to use for it. That goes to show the weaknesses in the system, largely the abuses that still manage to take place (and are generally not punished, which is where the real problem is). It says absolutely nothing about a situation like Egregore or other self-admitted mass murderers – it says things about proper identification of guilt, nothing about what punishment the undoubtedly guilty they deserve.
“Really, I feel the reason for the Joker always escaping is that most superhero comics are ongoing series and always need another story, another conflict, another villain.”
Yes, exactly, that’s the flip side of the “not killing people” thing. It’s contrived to have more episodes of a proven franchise, and the “never kill anyone no matter what” BS is exactly the same thing.
“That’s the single most realistic thing in this comic.”
Agreed. Obviously no one would want a team of super-powered “heroes” to go around dealing out death on a whim, but to adamantly NEVER do it, and to conveniently never run into situations where it’s the actual answer (“he put down the remote! take the shot!”) is, IMHO, one line of many separating entertainment for children from adult-level stories.
Let’s agree to disagree (for now) about the intents of the Pantheon. I for one don’t know much yet about them (unless I be mistaken, the only thing we know for sure is that they seem to always arrive late for meetings — but is it arrogance or just a very busy life?).
If I *had* to call an endboss, I’d muse that the superpowered beings engineered on that island seem to become more and more awfully dangerous, which leads me to think that dear ol’ Silverback will have to fight against even more overpowered “siblings”, until even he can’t do a blessed thing and the Pantheon has to step in, possibly after the Royal Guard has been defeated. (Also, there’s M.A.N.T.I.S and that dubious tycoon, but are they merely pawns of an even greater threat? Or are they independent for now, but said threat will make them comply or be destroyed?)
That being said, this story has been full of surprises and I totally expect my call to be wrong. And I’ll enjoy it, I think.
I for one would like that. Possibly with a subplot that would remind some of them of their own humanity, or simply make them aware of how important the common folk are. (Something all too easy to forget when you stride among the stars.)
You’d think I’ve written more than enough…
But I still have to say that this entrance is totally impressive, and well worth the reputation of the group. I was theorizing less than nine characters last page, possibly seven, but only six show (and I’m not complaining).
Quick character review: the two big guys look extremely menacing, as befits their reputation. I’ve been searching my memory for goddesses whose name starts with an A, and if that’s Artemis in white, well, the colour suits her theme. The lady in purple has an interesting relaxed stance, the one in red (Mercury?) looks like he’ll be the first to spring into action if needed… and the one in grey looks, naturally, as the least physically impressive but possibly the most dangerous of the bunch.
Once again, I’m looking forward to how this is going to play out. Congratulations!
Oh, and